Hi,

I was on my way out the door to catch the Eurostar on Friday when I found by 7 year old fantail goldfish floating on his side in the surface of the tank.  It was a real shock because he'd been fine all morning, eating, swimming, and showing off, and had appeared totally normal 10 minutes previously.  At first I though he was dead, but realised he was actually alive although clearly something was very wrong!

Within a few minutes he had sunk to the bottom of the tank, and fallen on his right side, apparently unable to right himself or swim. It was so sudden and he appeared so helpless I wondered whether he'd had a stroke, but with the cab waiting outside didn't have time to do anything other than a frantic 60 litre water change before having to leave.

Certain he would dye I left for Paris rather distraught, however on returning this afternoon found him alive.  He continues to lie at the bottom of the tank on his right side. His breathing appears normal and he is moving his eyes apparently aware of his environment, but unable to right himself despite periodic attempts.  He does try and swim but just ends up going in a circle and falling back on his rights side again. He shares a 200 litre tank with 3 Ryukins, to which they were all moved three weeks ago; although the tank itself had been cycling for three weeks previously.  The tank had appeared to be cycled except that teh water had never cleared completely.  It had been running on a Maidenhead Aquatics own brand cannister filter; but this afternoon I went out, bought and replaced this with a Cristal Profi 1500 filter instead.

I've done a 50% water change and started a swim bladder treatment just in case that's the cause.  I'm very attached to this fish and can't entertain the thought of euthanasia at this stage, and while he appears alert and aware of his surroundings.  I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with this and could help with diagnosing whether this might be a swim bladder issue, or perhaps something 'more' serious, and whether it is possible that he might survive?

Thanks,

Damien.

Yikes....put the old filter back on the tank ASAP if possible.  You just removed most of the good bacteria that was stabilizing your cycle!

Do you have water test kits?  Can you fill out the following questions as specifically as possible?
-- Help us help you. Just submit this note into your post anytime you need help. Please fill in the blanks below, enter in a question mark - ? - if you don't know the answer. --
1. Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate
2. pH/GH/KH
3. Temperature
4. Tank size/Filtration
5. Water change amount/frequency
6. Water additives/Medications
7. What, how much and how often do you feed your fish?
8. Tank inhabitants
9. Any new fish added to the tank? Who and when?
10. Any unusual behavior or symptoms?
11. How long has the tank been in operation?
-- Thanks! --

Hi Giraffe,

I included the media from the previous filter in the new one.

1. Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate  ? ? 40
2. pH/GH/KH ? (Need to go buy test kits tomorrow)
3. Temperature 22 deg i.e room temp
4. Tank size/Filtration 200 ltrs with cristal profi 1500 external filter
5. Water change amount/frequency 1 3rd every week or so
6. Water additives/Medications I've added some aquarium salt at one tbsp per 19 ltrs
7. What, how much and how often do you feed your fish? Hikari fancy goldfish sinking pellets one pich a day. A few pea every other day or so.
8. Tank inhabitants 3 Ryukin and one standard fantail.
9. Any new fish added to the tank? Who and when? One fish added 4 weeks ago.  The others added a week later (tank running for three weeks first)
10. Any unusual behavior or symptoms?
11. How long has the tank been in operation?

The nitrates are definitely on the high side, especially since you've done a large water change already which means they were super high to start with, but that is not surprising in a tank full of goldies.

Your tank is roughly 53 gallons (US) which is great for 4 fancy goldies.  It's not overstocked, but fully stocked.

22* C = 71* F...on the cool side.  Fancy goldies are tropical fish and need temps that are warm.  They shouldn't be in the high tropical temps, but around 76*.  Please increase the temp a bit.  When fish are cold they often end up with bouancy problems, swim bladder problems, difficulty digesting and lethargy.

What water conditioner are you using?  

Please don't add salt to the tank anymore unless you have a hydrometer and know how much saline is in the water to start with and how much it increases when you add more.  Goldies can handle salt better than most fresh water fish, but it still adds a degree of unnecessary stress and there is no scientific evidence that it serves a positive purpose.

Your water change schedule looks good.  

What is in your swim bladder treatment?  Difficulties with the swim bladder is a symptom of another problem.  That primary problem can be environmental, trauma, bacterial, etc.  Until you know what caused the swim bladder problem there is no way to effectively treat for it, so I'm curious what is in the treatment you are using.

Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Well just checked and he's still alive, but still flat on his side unable to move much, so I really am wondering whether its some kind of neurological problem.

I've read so much conflicting information on heating goldi tanks, some saying do it and others saying it's bad for them and shortens their life span, so in the end I decided against it given that my flats temperature is consistently around 23 degrees.  I do have a heater though should could put one in.

The swim bladder treatment I'm using is a newish one by interpet designed to address bacterial swimbladder infections.  It doesn't state exactly whats in it, but does say it contains formaldehyde, and requires the addition of salt to the tank hence my adding it.

I've just ordered a denitrifier filter from www.aquaripure.com which will hopefully help with management of nitrates in the future, but for now plan on a further partial water change today and as required.

The water still appears cloudy despite the new filter and its driving me mad.  I guess it could be sediment from the substrate (black sand) although this was washed thoroughly first, or maybe its the high nitrate levels?

Going to go and get some more test kits today, and try to find some sort of cradle or something to sit Patch up with.  I'll let you know how things progress.

Cloudy water is normal when the tank is restabilizing.  Adding the new filter is likely contributing to that...it will settle, just give it some time.

Fancy goldies are not traditional goldies, who do need cooler temps.  Fancy goldies start off so compromised from breeding for specific mutations, that they need the warmer water to facilitate basic digestion and bodily functions.  The cooler water really isn't helping him at this point, so even if you choose to continue believing that philosophy, for now, at least, warm him up.

Goldies with bacterial problems usually show it clearly since they are prone to septicemia.  If he doesn't have red splotches and streaking, the problem likely isn't bacterial but rather kidney related.  Most often, swim bladder problems with goldies is a sign of kidney failure or at least compromise.  SUpportive care is the best option...high quality foods, warm water, clean water and sometimes even the use of EPSOM salts (NOT aquarium salt) can help, if the swim bladder problem is still at a reversible stage.

The sling option is a good idea.  We've had members create various types of slings in the past for fancy goldies.  They really are prone to these types of problems, mostly due to the genetic mutations.

Hi,

Thanks for your reply. Ok here are the results I got with API 5 in 1 test strips an hour or so after a 30 percent water change today. I thought the kit did amomonia, but have just realised it doesn't so I'll have to get another kit for that tomorrow.

GH = 180 ppm (mg/l)

KH = 180 ppm (mag/l)

PH = 7.5

NO2 = 1 ppm (mg/l)

NO3 = somewhere between 20 and 40.

My Cristal Profi  filter  runs at a rate of 1500 Liters per hour.

I'm having problems with vacuuming due to the depth of the tank so haven't been able to do this very effectively so far.  I don't have  much in the way of plants, just have 3 anubias floating on the surface.

I took your advice re the heater and put one in currently set at 25 degrees.

No real change in Patches condition today, except that in the last hour or so he seems to have regained the ability to sit upright.

Hope that helps a bit.

Thanks,

Damien.

Ok....with those readings, I can assure you there is a lot ammonia in the water too.  I am hoping that since you used test strips, and they are horribly inaccurate (always get the liquid test kits if you can) that they aren't really that bad.  Nitrite of 1.0 is lethal, pure and simple.  I would do a couple back to back water changes to get that down.  One giant water change won't work with nitrite.  It is better to do several 20% water changes, one right after another.  You seriously HAVE to get the ntirites down to around .25

You can also do a one time addition of aquarium salt.  Nitrite binds to the hemoglobin in the blood and literally suffocates the fish (causing clamped fin, lethargy, listlessness, etc).  The salt will also bind with the nitrite, thus blocking it from binding with the hemoglobin.  I believe the dose is 1 tablespoon per 5g of water.

I can't say whether your tank had come completely uncycled before switching filters, but the new filter is obviously going to take some time to get things under control.  At this point, I would expect a mini cycle that could last 2-3 weeks.  You will need to test the water each day and do partial water changes accordingly.  You are likely going to burn through those test strips pretty quickly (test each day, do a water change, test again, possibly do another water change and one more test, etc.) so plan to buy a master test kit with liquid testing regents in the near future.  Also, a lot of water conditioners screw up the results in test strips...so that could be throwing things off for the better or worse.

Hi,

Well I managed to pick up a master test kit today and these were the readings I got:

Ammonia: 1 ppm

Nitrite: 0.50 ppm

Nitrate: 10 ppm

I completed a 60 ltr water change after testing and added an an ammonia removing agent, and on retesting a couple of hours later I got an Ammonia reading of 0.25.

The water is looking clearer now.

Patches condition is largely unchanged.  He is able to sit up now and does try to swim, but it's like he's got a rock in his stomach.  he can get his front end of the ground ,but it's as if his abdomen / tail is weighted down.  

I managed to hand feed him some peas last night and tonight, so feel a bit better knowing he has had something to eat.

Thanks again for all your help.  I'll keep you updated.

Damien.

I think the water quality is definitely playing a part in his problem.  I would do several back to back water changes to get that ammonia and nitrite to .25.  I believe that will reduce the stress on Patches and help him feel a little better.  It is good that he is better able to maintain his balance...definitely a good sign.